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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.18 11:58:00 - [1] The ISD news on the Delve conflict has been pretty good I'd say. On the whole I think the news team have been doing a decent job in recent times on reporting a range of conflicts and happenings across the Eve universe and while obviously nobody is going to be completely happy with the content on each article the reality is that all news is good news for the purposes of getting the participants names and identity out there in the public domain. Of course ISD is going to be dependent on players submitting leads though - its ridiculous to believe it can work in any other way, you can't expect the news team to have full time jobs inbedded in particular alliances and coalitions and create this stuff on spec and if it was ever discovered this was going on then it would create its own righteous scandal of indignation from everyone else. Ultimately I think the goons in this threat need to step back and realize that there is a big difference between the kind of CAOD spamming "domination" they have been shooting for over the past months and the process of submitting interesting and valuable news leads for ISD to follow-up and research for the in-game login news. Sure a CAOD front page full of memes and "we pwned j00 11111!" plays well for goon alliance membership and private forums but it does absolutely nothing to inform or entertain the wider eve player base and hence is pretty worthless as a basis for independent news articles. I find it very ironic that the goons in this thread are advising ISD to read SHC to find out whats happening in Delve because their own alliance have effectively made CAOD worthless through their own repetitive spamming - talk about an admission of guilt. Reality is that you goons are going to have to evolve out of your own niche posting standards and present accounts of the war that appeal to "pubbies" if you expect to be taken seriously and given the general air time you seem to believe you deserve. Other than that. Carry on with what you're doing ISD news - from a player uninvolved with the Delve conflict its been an informative and interesting sequence of articles and I do appreciate the RP spin you've placed on an often bland and unattractively metagamy sequence of game mechanic ploys. Well done. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.18 12:11:00 - [2] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 18/03/2009 12:12:38 Originally by: Mr Rive Originally by: Killer2 Originally by: ISD Serathu Ashk I can understand your viewpoint however I must point out that correlation does not imply causation. To explain the reason behind what you've identified, we're volunteers and as such cannot rely on a formal commitment of time when it comes to reporting. We're somewhat understaffed at the moment and given some recent illnesses and absences, we've not necessarily had the experience and the volunteer time to commit to writing such news. This, coupled with the fact that we're not always told about events that happen (again, we don't have the staffing to know about everything that goes on or check every forum post), makes it very hard to produce a consistent output in terms of number of articles. It's a situation I'm unhappy with which is why we're taking more reports on and will start prominently recruiting soon (we've got to make sure we have the people to train new volunteers first). I hope that clearly answers this concern but if not, I'll be happy to explain further. I can completely understand that ISD staff are simply volunteers and are therefore somewhat restricted to time constraints. However, please do not tell me that the excuse to the biased articles published are as a direct result of staffing issues. With that line of argument, you are telling me that it is some shocking coincidence where immediately after GKC forces had their first major win in weeks, that suddenly the staffing issues for ISD were resolved and you were able to publish a news article? This isn't something that has just popped up overnight. The biased opinions and reports coming from ISD has been an ongoing problem, as I have highlighted in my previous post. You have had ample time to find new (impartial) reporters who are capable of presenting both sides of an argument. Your feature articles about Kenzoku or Band of Brothers have only ever represented their successes and perhaps only briefly mentioning their failures. Claiming that ISD isn't able to know everything that's going on in Eve is not relevant in this scenario. We are not talking about some rediculous fight between two fifty-man corporations. This is an ongoing conflict between thousands of players who make up more than 50% of CCP's player base. If ISD staff live under a rock, perhaps I can understand not knowing about the conflict. Are you also telling me that ISD were aware of a breakout of GKC forces from PR- after being camped in for weeks on end, but you were unaware of the amount of deathstars and baby super-capitals that were destroyed in Delve by coalition forces? Please stop trying to scratch at the surface in an attempt to find excuses for the biased view on ISD news reports. I am but one voice in this community, however I know for a fact that I am not the only one who feels this way. Perhaps it is time that ISD seriously reflects how articles are published and what effect they have on the eve community. I pray that you come to realize the mistakes ISD have consistently made spanning at least two years, before it is too late and the majority of the eve community simply ignores the articles you publish, which I am already beginning to do. Respectfully, Killer2. im just gonna quote his so i dont have the spend time writing a similar yet less well shaped opinion Two items from that post you quoted leap off the page really: 1. The conspiracy theory about why news gets published? - Well, it takes somebody to submit a news lead. Spamming CAOD doesn't count. 2. "This is an ongoing conflict between thousands of players who make up more than 50% of CCP's player base." Seriously. If you really believe this is correct you really need to wake up and smell the coffee ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.18 23:08:00 - [3] Originally by: Totally Slick the idea that anyone at ccp or any one who volunteers for ccp could cheat is just so ridiculous that I won't even acknowledge the possibility that it could happen I think you are on pretty rocky ground here goonswarm. Since in the eyes of many Eve players your current "squatting" on the Band of Brothers corp name for the purpose of blocking the re-creation of an established player alliance name is something that certainly looks like a breach of the rules and the fact that CCP haven't already forcibly renamed the goonswarm "band of brothers alt corp" to "corporation 112113131331" looks as much as anything like a biased position in your favour... It is ridiculous that corporation naming can block alliance naming in the first place - but wilfully doing this to cause grief and upset by denying an existing player entity its established in-game identity is something that many consider beyond the pale of reasonable gameplay. By this deed goonswarm directors displayed their intention to remove history from the game and exploit poor game mechanics to do it. Got to say if I was still on the CSM I'd be for bringing this matter up to CCP as a matter of principle, since I think failing to rectify this situation when there is a past record of impersonation characters and entities being removed is poor form. So at this point goonswarm complaining about CCP bias is laughable at best. You are abusing the alliance/corporation naming system for cheap morale damage against other paying Eve players and it doesn't look good. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.18 23:21:00 - [4] Originally by: Mo adib Edited by: Mo adib on 18/03/2009 23:17:04 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Totally Slick the idea that anyone at ccp or any one who volunteers for ccp could cheat is just so ridiculous that I won't even acknowledge the possibility that it could happen I think you are on pretty rocky ground here goonswarm. Since in the eyes of many Eve players your current "squatting" on the Band of Brothers corp name for the purpose of blocking the re-creation of an established player alliance name is something that certainly looks like a breach of the rules and the fact that CCP haven't already forcibly renamed the goonswarm "band of brothers alt corp" to "corporation 112113131331" looks as much as anything like a biased position in your favour... It is ridiculous that corporation naming can block alliance naming in the first place - but wilfully doing this to cause grief and upset by denying an existing player entity its established in-game identity is something that many consider beyond the pale of reasonable gameplay. By this deed goonswarm directors displayed their intention to remove history from the game and exploit poor game mechanics to do it. Got to say if I was still on the CSM I'd be for bringing this matter up to CCP as a matter of principle, since I think failing to rectify this situation when there is a past record of impersonation characters and entities being removed is poor form. So at this point goonswarm complaining about CCP bias is laughable at best. You are abusing the alliance/corporation naming system for cheap morale damage against other paying Eve players and it doesn't look good. before you get all righteous about how the evil goonies have done so wrong by utterly destroying their enemy u might want to look and see that the same side was attempting to do the same thing at the same time, infact they were even more open about it. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=980800 The fact that this is still on the first page when you are talking about it is rather embarassing though :/ dont throw stones when living in glass houses and what not. edit: and god dont bring up your CSM time, that just proved how worthless of a PR bit the entire CSM thing was. Take a hint, you were not chosen again in any fashion. Well not being chosen again might have had something to do with me not running again Unlike some I decided to wait until the issues I'd championed first time around actually got into the game before standing for re-election. (call me old-fashioned like that). But on the point you raise about that AAA post. I honestly couldn't care less about it. Two wrongs don't make a right. If somebody had stolen the goonswarm name and squatted on it with an alt corp I'd support you guys getting it back. I don't believe the game of Eve should contain the kind of meta-gaming that can deny a group of players the identity they have established by cheaply creating alt-corps to block alliance naming. On this issue I'm pro fair play and against cheesy game-mechanic exploitation whoever it benefits and whoever it harms. Take it or leave it. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.18 23:25:00 - [5] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 18/03/2009 23:26:01 Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Kenny didn't own the name, and when it was no longer in use, anyone was free to use it. Thats a poor argument and you know it. Why then does an alliance that forgets to pay the bill and has a 3rd party "steal" the name in the interim get to petition and recover their name down the road? You gained the advantage the alliance disbanding allowed you in zero'ing all BOB sovereignty and allowing the conquest of Delve. Squatting on the Band of Brothers name and using it as an alt corp CAOD spamming entity is just taking the mickey. If it had been any other alliances than Band of Brothers and Goonswarm involved I strongly suspect this would already have been resolved and the name returned. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.18 23:50:00 - [6] Originally by: Mo adib Also of a side note, that post is made by one alt of Jake Noble(lol apparently ccp dont ban all alt posters) who was a former high ranking member in band of brothers and still influential liason to BOB and AAA, so my point in raising the post was that it was infact a GBC post and the irony of them losing their name so recently after such a disgusting attempt and metagaming is a hilarious event of the highest order. Like I said I don't care who made that post. I'm opposed to squatting on other people's unique entity names regardless of who thinks to do it and who they attempt to do it to. Irony or not, it represents a diminishing of the unique player history of Eve online and I think it just isn't on. As for goonswarm paying 1b and registering the alliance name I'd still oppose that. (or anybody else doing this). The only way I think it would be reasonable for goonswarm to get control of the Band of Brothers name is if they managed to subvert enough ceos/directors of alliance and literally kick out everyone else. (This would be pretty damned difficult of course but that hasn't stopped other people managing it in the past). The snap disband / immediate registration of a corp to block the alliance reforming was a cheap trick whichever way you cut it and its the main reason why this delve campaign is not something that impresses the general population of the server much. As already pointed out in this thread - ISD news reading "oh yeah we got a guy to click alliance disband and registered another corp name to steal the identity and basically won" - isn't newsworthy or good copy. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.19 00:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel CCP does not protect idiots , or else then every person who got scammed should file for a full refund . Deal with it . Then I guess its fair to say that CCP does not protect Goonswarm from being pretty poor at propaganda and failing to submit appropriate news leads either right? Deal with it. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.19 01:01:00 - [8] Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Biased news reporting != Scam or game mechanics . Whats biased about following up good leads but not following up bad leads? You guys are very quick to whine about things when something goes against you. Is it so hard to believe that you are simply worse at propaganda news than your opponents? ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.19 01:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel You do know that aurora or what not had bobbits , right ? So what makes em bias proof . And I know that CCP told us that goons had more volunteers devs gms and whatnot than bob had. Random rabble rabble is not proof. And I also know how the in-game news process works having managed to get Star Fraction in the news more times than goons and their allies have done so far Its not sorcery and its not rocket-science. It does take the ability to click "submit news lead" and provide the seed of the story, opportunity for journalism and suggestions for other participants to interview so the reporter can present a balanced case. ISD don't like canned narratives or closed conclusions. Maybe thats where you are going wrong? ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.19 01:25:00 - [10] Originally by: isqander And the fact that whatever corp you run gets any attention is proof that the current system is broken. The fact that the goons are not very good at public relations and propaganda is not proof of anything being broken. Ultimately it doesn't matter if you have 5000 members and camped a station for a month if none of your directors or representatives are capable of submitting a valid news lead. If you want to make an impact you have to sell yourselves properly ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.19 01:38:00 - [11] Originally by: Mo adib I would like to thank you jade for your part in keeping this issue current and at the top of the forums... Its an important issue really. Every so often in Eve online some alliance or another thinks to attack ISD news on the allegation of perceived "bias" its generally always revealed as sour grapes and inability to use the "submit news lead" button correctly. On this thread we've already seen a senior goon confirming that this current anti ISD campaign is just a organized campaign of wrecking to follow on the from the organized anti-CAOD campaign of the month before. No mystery here. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.19 01:46:00 - [12] Originally by: Mo adib edit: but oh wait that is right there are actually quite a few in this thread not from goons and some not even related to goons (which is an accomplishment because apparently they napped all of eve rite?) that are upset over the horrible job that is being done and the lame excuses being given for why it was handled so poorly. You do release that its possible for people to click on your portrait and see your posting history right? ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.19 01:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Mo adib ... although you promptly ignored them. I've replied where I see fit to do so and make the argument I wanted to make. I tend to ignore irrelevant points and outright incivility. Heh, surely you don't expect a person to reply to every single member of goonswarm - that would be a full time job! ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.19 02:20:00 - [14] Originally by: Mo adib Try and write this argument off as a goon offensive on ccp or whatever you think it is ... Originally by: The Mittani i think you may be mistaking the intentional delegitimation of an outlet for whining but w/e nbd~ it happened to caod and now it seems to be isd's turn Enough said really. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.19 02:58:00 - [15] Originally by: Mo adib ... goons, who are putting up a legitimate grievance against ISD. Originally by: The Mittani i think you may be mistaking the intentional delegitimation of an outlet for whining but w/e nbd~ it happened to caod and now it seems to be isd's turn Do you understand what is meant by "intentional delegitimation" in this context? ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.19 04:03:00 - [16] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 19/03/2009 04:06:18 Originally by: Mo adib ... and my response was that just because goons are trying to delegitimize an organization ... And you think its acceptable for players of an online game to attack the legitimacy of the organizer's official news source and make unfounded accusations of "bias" because that special group of players feel they haven't received enough spontaneous praise? Really? Whatever happened to respecting the referee and having a bit of faith in people doing a decent job. Thus far the CSM has had 18 players who have visited CCP headquarters in Iceland and met these guys face to face and come away with the strong impression that they were doing a good job and were running this game in a fair and balanced fashion. I've met these people and I'm telling you that things are open and above board and I've told you on this very thread exactly how you can get news pieces published. And yet you'd still rather believe its all some terrible conspiracy against the goons and yet again you are the slighted party because absolutely everything hasn't gone precisely your own way. The reality is simply that you haven't submitted your news leads properly. Everyone else in the game has to use this mechanism - just expecting ISD to do the work for you and making goonswarm a special case is your problem not CCP's. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.19 04:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Mo adib its ok eventually you will have an argument in this thread that doesnt get shot down. Well you guys haven't managed it yet Quote: ... in this case there is evidence to support the accusations ... Except there isn't. Quote: However seeing as this thread has now reached 8 pages and you are beginning to bore me I think ill call it a day and let others take the torch Well, its livened up some long-range hauling for me so you've not entirely wasted your time. ta ta! ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.20 15:12:00 - [18] Originally by: Brobuck Funny in that somehow an alliance (anime is cartoons) that holds no outposts somehow qualifies as a newsmaker? Funny how somebody in an alliance with lots of outposts somehow thinks thats the only qualifying attribute for being a newsmaker. What next I have to ask? Perhaps only people who own Titans should qualify as newsmakers (since they have obviously "won eve" by owning the biggest ship in the game?) Perhaps only people with 90m skillpoints should qualify as newsmakers (since by playing for five years+ they've shown they can stand the test of time?) Perhaps only people with 100b+ isk in their wallets should qualify as newsmakers (since they are actually demonstrating an ability to materially affect the political environment through their buying power?) Perhaps only people who have appeared in EON should qualify as newsmakers (since they've been recognized by the eve community and considered worthwhile commentators worthy of the interview in print?) Perhaps only people who've qualified past the first round in the alliance tournament should qualify as newsmakers (since they at least can pvp on an even footing in a competition of their peers?) See where I'm going with this yet? Basically setting up just one factor (temporary ownership of invulnerable outposts) amongst the myriad indicators of individual (or alliance) success in the environment of eve online and using it as the sole measure of qualification for "newsmaker status" is the height of arrogant fallacy and makes you guys every bit the overbearing egocentric faux-elitest stereotypes you used to accuse Band of Brothers of being. Eve does not begin and end with outposts. Reading a monotonous dirge of "x took y outpost and lost z outpost" every day on the login page would be massively boring and present an entirely meaningless view of accomplishment in the setting. What would be newsworthy would be if you got SirMolle and the BOB leadership to post on CAOD with an admission of defeat and surrender. But that would take a little more than a cheap emo director disband trick and a month long station camp to achieve so it might be too hard for you guys to achieve. So then, less of the silly elitest "only outposts matter" nonsense please. When you've managed to achieve something newsworthy in your own name then you can talk about "newsmakers" - until then keep trying with everyone else and accept there is more than one route to fame and fortune in the single server environment of Eve Online. And have a nice day! ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.20 15:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Brobuck funny how you respond to my question to somebody else, but ignore my question to you Your question to me was based on an entirely false premise and it was pointless to address. Whereas the comment you passed that I did reference was far more significant in the context of this thread. Respond to that if you wish. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.23 15:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Amiable Quinn Veto - small non-space holding group, specializes in small gang pvp, approximately 200 members Goonswarm - largest alliance in the game, held/holds enormous swaths of territory, currently holds most valuable territory in the game, Regularly has fleet battles involving hundreds/thousands of pilots, approximately 5000 members (not counting allies) Who gets more coverage in ISD? Veto. You are forgetting: Veto - Highly individual identity, established leadership, excellent self-publicity, well known personalities in the community and (one would assume) know how to fill in news-lead forms correctly. Goonswarm - Best known for spamming CAOD, uncommunicative leadership, generally poor publicity, 5000 random members (most people would be hard put to name six actual different goons) and (it appears from this thread) don't know how to fill in news-lead forms correctly. Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh Amiable Quinn but I have no clue who you are or who 99.9% of goon posters are. I know of Darius, I know of Mitani, I know of Bane, and I know of Goumindong. But thats about it for goonswarm - the rest of the 4996 members have never done anything to distinguish themselves in game and are only visible through forum spamming CAOD. But thats the reality with a large organization I'm afraid - you don't join goonswarm to become famous - you join because you want to be an anonymous cog in the great machine and thats fine if it suits your playstyle but it does make it difficult for anyone on the outside to see what you are about. Reminds me a bit of the space-monkeys from Fight Club - shaven heads and identical commitment to project mayhem. You only have a name in death. (Like Suas I guess). Basically you need to realize that 5000 members is nothing in the grand universe of Eve online - a mere drop in the ocean. Most of the game couldn't care less about outposts in Delve or month long station camps. You'd get more actual impact suiciding mining barges or haulers in empire - then the general population would take notice. You'd also get far more notice if you cut back the CAOD spam and had some actual leadership figures posting proper press releases from time to time that had content and news in them rather than flames and memes and in-jokes that mean nothing to the readership of CAOD let alone the rest of the forums. Here's the thing. When Verone posts a press release as Veto people read it because its likely to say something about something happening in-game. Sure its not going to be a huge massive world-defining something thats going to make the sky collapse and carebears go screaming to the heavens in an orgy of cataclysmic emocide ... but its going to mean something. When Goons post ... well, I guess most people outside goonswarm never read the threads. Eyes glaze over, boredom and yawns, its nothing orginal - nothing interesting, nothing worth reading. Its all trolling, fakeposts, lame jokes and circular memes that just aren't looking at. Its the "less is more" school of penetrating PR message. You guys in goonswarm have tried carpet-bombing caod with a myriad identical voices saying "never mind the quality feel the width" and it hasn't worked. People switch off. Thats really what the op post to this thread is actually about I think - its nothing to do with ISD News bias or anything like that. Its closer to a cry for help on the part of a goonswarm that doesn't really understand why its message is not getting through and why what they perceive to be a great accomplishment and victory is not being seen that way by the rest of the server. We've had the CAOD "dirty campaign" of destructive spamming already. Question is can the goonswarm culture actually evolve and produce some proper public relations savvy and dig itself out of the pit its fallen into. Because until that happens. Veto means more than Goonswarm in Eve online. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.23 17:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Amiable Quinn 2. We are playing internet spaceships, no one is "important", what I was discussing is relevence We are all nobodies. Well Amiable Quinn if you appreciate that Goonswarm are "nobodies" then there is no reason why they should be considered any more relevant than anybody else playing this game is there? Ultimately it comes down to submitting interesting news-leads. If we're all "nobodies" then the name of the organization has no relevance and its all about ISD news getting informed about things that the rest of the "nobodies" in the player base find intriguing. This pretty much invalidates the accusation of "bias" that the goonswarm posters have been making in the thread. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.04.07 13:26:00 - [22] Are they really still complaining about getting no news coverage for camping an empty station? ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.04.07 13:33:00 - [23] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 07/04/2009 13:33:05 Originally by: Zell Shadowcast Who are you? The person you owe your 100m goonfleet fees for April too. Send the isk over when you logon otherwise your section commander will have you humping roids for the next six weeks. Hop to it old chap! Toodle-pip ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.04.07 13:38:00 - [24] Originally by: Zell Shadowcast ... which account do i send the isk to. Jade Constantine will do. Mark the isk transfer "april fees". Jolly good. ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.04.07 14:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Zell Shadowcast I'm not givin u isk bro, i don't like the cut of your jib. Bah goons, I thought the one thing you guys were good at was following orders Disappointing! ISSUE - Bring Space Bushido to CAOD

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